NIC Chats
NIC Chats
NIC Chats Podcast with Ryan Novaczyk
In this episode of NIC Chats, Lisa McCracken sits down with Ryan Novaczyk, CEO of New Perspective Senior Living, to explore his insights as an operator in the senior living industry pursuing a growth strategy.
Novaczyk shares a personal story of how his grandmother's struggle with Alzheimer's inspired him and his father to create a better living environment for seniors. He discusses how his family's experience led to the founding of New Perspective, which now operates 42 communities across the U.S., focusing on providing a hospitality-driven model that emphasizes life engagement and purposeful living for its residents.
The conversation delves into the significant changes Novaczyk has witnessed over his 25 years in the industry, from technological advancements to shifts in operational complexity and increased resident acuity. He highlights the importance of collaboration and servant leadership, particularly in New Perspective's co-CEO structure, which allows for a more agile and effective management approach.
Novaczyk also touches on the challenges of new construction due to high costs and interest rates, and the opportunities arising from acquisitions and partnerships. He emphasizes the value of networking and collaboration within the industry, encouraging operators to share insights and best practices to drive growth and improve care for seniors.
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<silence> Welcome everyone to the latest Nick Chats podcast. This is Lisa McCracken, the head of research and analytics with NIC Super, excited to have as our guest , uh, today, Ryan Novacek , who is the CEO of New Perspective senior living. Also a very dedicated Nick Volunteer. Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate you joining us today .
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:So , uh, and I, I'm asking this question for myself as well. I do not know this at all. I don't know your background and how you got into the industry, so I'm always curious, I mean , you've been around for a while, but would you give us a little history of, of your entree in , into the senior living space?
Speaker 2:Sure. So we've been at this for over , uh, 25 years. Um, got into the business because my grandma had Alzheimer's, and we as a family couldn't find a place. We felt , uh, good about taking her. And , uh, we took care of her for seven years, learned a tremendous amount about the needs of seniors, particularly those with Alzheimer's and other forms of, of dementia. And we kept her busy doing stuff every day , raking leaves, shoveling snow arts and crafts, music, family events , uh, going to church , um, gardening , uh, weeding , uh, you , you name it. And most of the time she went to bed because she was tired, had a big day, not because she was doped up on antis psychotropic medication, which is far too often how we , uh, tend to treat that disease in this country. Uh , my father Todd , had a background in hospitality, restaurants and hotels. Uh, I was working on Wall Street, did investment banking , uh, for a number of years , uh, mergers and acquisitions , uh, equity research. And we cooked up a business plan in the basement, and nothing happened for a few years. And my mom was screaming at my dad to , to get a job, and he kept saying, it's gonna work, it's gonna work. And finally a deal got done, and then two, and then four. And now we're at , uh, 42 communities taking care of over 4,000 vice , 85 year olds helping to live life on purpose every day .
Speaker 1:Uh, I had no idea that it was a family thing. I'm , I'm actually, I've, I'm always impressed to learn the number of families that really have some legacies in our industry. It's pretty impressive. So , um, so your father's still involved, or, or I'm not sure it's still Yeah ,
Speaker 2:He , he , he is, he is, he's our executive chairman. So, and yeah, the, the business does lend itself to quite a few , uh, companies started , uh, from caring for loved ones because there was a deficit in the markets they were in, and they couldn't find a place similar to us that you felt good about bringing your loved one, and you set out to try to make , uh, uh, the environment , uh, uh, not just for your loved one, but but for others, right . Um, uh, to, to bring that to bear. And there's a lot of history there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, you know, on the change front , you go back 25 years and , and feeling like there's not a sufficient , um, or at least quality of what you've found potentially in a particular area for your grandmother, do you think we've moved the needle as an industry on that? I mean, what have you seen change , um, in your 25 years, and maybe where do we still need to go?
Speaker 2:I , I think everything has changed. I mean, you go all the way back to the beginning and, you know , you take something simple like using QuickBooks <laugh> . Yeah . And then you look at the, the complexity of just the systems that you're using for basic, you know, accounting and , and finance and the complexities increased exponentially. I , I think that's true in every single aspect of the business. The model started out , uh, very hospitality , uh, focused , uh, trying to be the antithesis, a little bit of the, of the skilled nursing environment. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And over time , uh, the acuity of our residents has , has risen in hospitality is still of , of utmost importance, as in life engagement and helping seniors to live life on purpose. Uh, but the care needs of folks have as they've aged and the acuity's risen. And there's, you know, on average, I think four or five comorbidities with, with all of our residents, it, it's become just very, very complex. And that's true across every aspect of, of the, of the business. Um, sales has changed , uh, dramatically. The, the tools we use to sell have changed dramatically how we identify our customers through psychographic and other information has changed dramatically. The technology just in the core physical plant has changed tremendously. I , I got a call from one of our directors inquiring about a , a contract for the, the Trane , uh, HVAC system. And it , it's software based now. And you , you typically wouldn't have a contract for , uh, software monitoring tool , uh, for air conditioning and heat, but there is one now. Um, you look at the fire protection systems, the door access control, the, the CCTV, there's just been a tremendous amount of change. The , the tools we're using on the marketing front have changed, used to be sending out direct mail, and now close to 80% of our leads are coming from digital sources. That's a massive change. So I think mm-hmm <affirmative> . Every single year we've seen increasing complexity in the business, a tremendous amount of change, but all for the, the good , uh, for improving , uh, the quality of life and, and healthcare given to, to seniors and, and folks do better in the senior living setting than they do in at home. Uh, loneliness is a huge thing out there, and , uh, we can help to solve for that. So , uh, probably more changes to come on the horizon , uh, with the introduction of ai, I , I think we're gonna see the pace of technology and its usage accelerate, and it's an exciting time to be in seniors housing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a lot of that, that technology and operational complexity as well is quickly changing . And even just, you know, in the past five years with some of that , um, a as an operator and , and one of the things that we hear often is, you know, first of all, how do you keep up with all of that? And also, you know, the expense of , of , of all of that. But it's one of those things, you know, if you don't, there's a cost to doing it as well. How do you guys navigate that? I'm just curious. Um, staying on top of it. And then, you know, the , the commitment on the investment side of things,
Speaker 2:You've gotta have the right people first and foremost. Uh, you've gotta have very well thought out, you know, processes, and you need to get in alignment with your capital partner. Uh, a lot of those things that I, I mentioned that we do on the management side of the house hit one , uh, p and l and a lot of those things I mentioned , uh, hit the other side of the house at the operating community level , uh, where your capital partners are involved. And , uh, the cost has increased exponentially to, to just run the day-to-day operations of seniors. Housing human resources is another area that , I don't wanna say it was ever simple, 'cause people are always complicated , uh, to deal with and, and manage. But the complexity there in navigating those waters and, and really dialing things in on the recruitment and retention front , uh, it requires a , a great team of, of folks with great tools and systems and , uh, and culture. Uh, we, we are huge believers in, in servant leadership and collaboration at new perspective. And that kind of serves as our, our North Star. So we kind of add that into the mixing bowl with great people and great process. Yeah . And continuous cultural improvement, you can kind of solve any problem that's out there. Might not be instantaneous, but if you put your mind to it, you can, you can work through those issues that , uh, that pop up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um , I, I observational just sort of the cost and affordability piece. Now, this is on the consumer side of things. As I was , um, preparing for our time together, I was digging around the website and you guys have a pretty cool, it's called senior and assisted living cost calculator. And , um, you know, you know, and probably there's some validity to the argument that, you know, our sector does sometimes skew a little towards, you know, a , a higher income private pay group. But at the same time, we also know that, that sometimes the aging in place on top of the isolation things that you referenced too , but it , you know, if you need some support in your home, I mean, the cost of of aging in your home isn't always feasible either. And, and I , I thought you , you took a really interesting approach with that on your website in terms of some of this cost benefit . And actually, in many respects, it , it's sometimes more costly to live in your home than it is to have sort of that, that bundled, you know, hair quality, social environment.
Speaker 2:In , in most cases, you're exactly correct. It is more costly to live in, in your home. And it could be three to four x the price tag of what you'd be paying to live in a senior living community. And probably you're gonna get worse health and wellness outcomes when you look at, you know, just the maintenance of most seniors are probably don't have a mortgage on their home anymore. It's been, it's been paid off. Uh, but property taxes are real, insurance costs are real , uh, energy costs are real. Uh, the cost of food and food preparation , um, has gone through the, the roof. And it's difficult for a senior to buy in bulk. 'cause the mm-hmm <affirmative> . Typically it's, it's , uh, the, the gal that the , the gal's kinda outlive us skies a little bit, and, you know , she's home alone and you're not able to go to Costco and, and get savings on, on groceries. You look at just the, the yard maintenance , um, automobiles, getting to appointments. So there's a tremendous amount of cost , uh, staying in your home. And then if you do need healthcare and senior living, assisted living related services, you're bringing in home health and there's certainly a role for home health and it's usage going to dramatically expand and it , and it needs to mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um, but what you miss out on is that broader , uh, setting to enable socialization and life engagement and what we call living life on purpose. And so to have, you know, daily access to physical fitness, a great dining experience, activities happening , uh, being able to, to meet and hang out with, with friends, new friends and old friends, and, and have a , a a area where you can bring in, you know, guests and things of that nature to, to share your, your home and your common space. I mean, when you look at a senior living community, and it's maybe a hundred to 150 units , uh, there's like a whole city going out in there with, you know, a bar and a bistro and a dance hall , and a salon spa, and a warm water therapy pool, a rehab, fitness gym. Uh, you've got service professionals everywhere. You've got round the clock staffing , uh, you've got on-call nursing in the middle of the night if that's needed. And so any way you kind of slice it , uh, seniors tend to be better in that setting and thrive in that setting , uh, more so than they do in that isolated setting in their home. And oh, by the way, it's more cost effective for them in most cases, which is why we put that calculator together to help illuminate those factors.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, that , that's pretty cool. Um, and I couldn't help but have a vision in my mind when you mentioned the , the , the bar, the pub of, have you seen a man on the inside <laugh> and Ted dance since first night in the retirement community? They had a good time. If you haven't seen it, check it out. It's pretty funny. <laugh> . Um, so you mentioned , um, you know, the right capital partners. So new perspective, you guys had a pretty big splash last year about , um, you know, some, a capital commitment , um, sure . And, you know, a pretty clear plan around growth of the organization. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 2:So, several years ago we set a goal of getting to 10,000 seniors living life on purpose, and we're just about halfway there. So lots of work to do, but the, the pace is accelerating a little bit in , in its exciting. Uh, to achieve that goal. Uh, you need to have great capital partners, great equity partners, great reap partners , uh, great lending partners. Uh, every deal is a little bit unique, and we've been very blessed to, to have a wonderful , uh, equity group and , and our partners Bolt and Fen Gate , and a great banking relationship with, with BMO . Um, and that capital stack works well for certain transactions. And then we've got a wonderful relationship and continue to grow with, you know, our, our biggest reap partner , uh, Welltower . And , uh, they've been probably growing their , their book of business more so than any other capital group that that's out there. So we , we love working with them and they've got a big appetite, as do we for, for growth. And depending on the transaction, you try to find, you know, what is the right fit based on the dynamics? Is it a big value add deal with a, with a turnaround? Is it a brand new building that's 95% occupied and knock it out 35 40% NOI margins? And your job is just to keep the, the car on the road. Uh, is it a massive, you know, turnaround effort where the physical plant needs to be totally refurbished, remodeled, refreshed, and the team needs to be , uh, really , uh, uh, ramped up and, and improved from a a people quality standpoint, a process standpoint. So there's all these different deals out there that have different risk profiles that mm-hmm . That fit differently with different capital partners. Um, certainly don't want to have 6, 7, 8, 9 capital partners because asset management has become a much , uh, bigger deal for them. Um mm-hmm <affirmative> . They're much more involved in learning about the day-to-day operations, and that's a good thing. Uh, the more knowledge base that that capital partners have that we can share with them , uh, we're gonna make better investment decisions together as a team. Uh, but that's, you know , one of those other changes we were talking about earlier that I didn't mention. Um, we are much more attached at the hip with all of our capital partners talking through what's going on in the day-to-day and, and sharing ideas and insight and, and collaboration. And that's, that's driving good outcomes. So , uh, we're very pleased with, you know, where we're at in the, in the pools of capital, we've got to go execute on the, on the growth plan. And , uh, there's a , a , a ton of great activity happening every single day. We probably evaluate several transactions a week , um, wow. You know, hundreds over the course of a year, but only about 5% or less shake out the bottom end of that, that funnel. So you've got a lot of leads that go into the top of the funnel and you process through underwriting an investment committee, and then you get approvals and those things shake out, and then you actually gotta go Yeah . You know, negotiate and close a , a transaction. So a lot of activity has to happen for a fairly, you know, small number of deals to come out the bottom of that funnel. But it continues to grow. The team continues to grow , and we're excited about the opportunities that are out there in the space to hopefully reach our goal of 10,000 seniors , uh, living life on purpose in the not too distant future.
Speaker 1:That , that is crazy. The number that you just quoted. So, man, yeah. You need a team to, to stay on top of that. I do wanna spend a little time talking about as it relates to the team, so you have, you know, what I will call a unique, but also I'm observing a little bit of a growing that you , you're not alone in the structure in terms of the, the co CEO or, and was the CEO present or co CEOI believe structure , um, with your organization, which I , where I've seen work very well , um, with the right organizations, others, if you don't have the right setup , <laugh> , um, you know, and I think the right people as well, it , it cannot go so well. So can you talk a little bit about just what the structure is and then the rationale behind it and maybe a little bit the , the division and sort of divide and conquer? Sure .
Speaker 2:So I'm one of the cos and the CO CEO structure over here at New Perspective. Uh, Chris Hyatt is my partner in crime, and we've had this structure in place. We were , I think, one of the first to do it in this space, not, not in business, in , yeah , in general. I mean, you can go back to, to Michael Dell , um, where the CEO and the CO were kind of mm-hmm <affirmative> . There's actually a book written about it called Riding Shotgun, which is an interesting read, but it really talks about, you know, why it's so important to have kind of those two roles merged, you know, together, where, you know, the right hand always knows what the left hand is doing and, and , and vice versa. So because of the complexity that we've talked about so far , uh, that was really the, the reason behind this. And , and this is true in other businesses. Netflix as an example, as a co CEO structure, and there's lots of other examples out there when you look at the, the areas you need to cover. Um, it , it is just, it , it's, it's massive. It's sales, it's marketing, it's human resources, it's information technology, it's finance, it's accounting, it's treasury management, it's asset management, it's investment, it's risk, it's legal. I mean, I could go on and on and on. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . One person is very difficult to tackle all of those things. And when you do the typical hierarchical pyramid structure, you tend to get more latency, slower decision making , and probably less attention to the team members you need to support mm-hmm <affirmative> . In each of those areas. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . By flattening out the org chart a little bit with that co CEO structure and having a divide and conquer approach , uh, we have found it to be , uh, much more effective , uh, than the traditional , uh, structure. And , uh, Chris has got his areas that he's generally focused on mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I've got my area , my areas, I can do his job, he can do my job, and neither guy does each other's guy job quite as good as as the other guy, but we, we figure out a way to get it done. And I can step in his shoes if he's out on vacation, or if there's a big project that I'm working on, he can step in my shoes in certain instances. And so it's not just about coverage, but we're getting more , uh, leadership and direction to the team , uh, quicker. And you gotta have, you know, just a fantastic partnership to pull that off. There needs to be an unbelievable amount of trust between the two co-CEOs, and we're very blessed in that regard . And, and you've gotta be able to have, you know, radical candor , uh, with one another and be intellectually honest, even though sometimes it's uncomfortable to have those discussions. And, and Chris and I are blessed to have all those things. Doesn't mean we agree on everything mm-hmm <affirmative> . All of the time, but we're able to complete each other's sentences in most cases. And we're able to deliver kind of a common, you know, hi , his messaging might be subtly different than mine in regards to the, the team mm-hmm <affirmative> . But we, we figure it out. And if we've got a disagreement, you kind of take that offline. You don't, you know, air that or broadcast it in front of the broader group. Although occasionally we'll debate on things in front of the broader group and you just kinda work through. And , and so we found it to be quite refreshing. Um, it's new, it's fun, it's, it's exciting. There's other folks replicating that in the, in the space. There's been a number of interviews we've done on that topic, and I've seen a number of articles published of late that more people are trying it and it's not for everybody. Um , right . But if you've got two folks that have got, you know, that type of, you know , a mindset and, and can kind of check the ego at the door a little bit and just want to go help seniors live life on purpose, I think people will find it's a better way to, to tackle , uh, running a , a business in our space. And, and maybe in general, you're seeing lots of other companies experiment with it outside of the senior living sector as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Good for you. Yeah, I do think that the ego check is a big one. And, you know, just communication and trust. So , um, that , I think that's awesome. I , I wanna go back to the, the growth conversation a little bit. So in all of that transaction activity, and you were talking about different, you know, opportunities you're vetting on a weekly BA basis. I didn't hear anything about new construction. Is it in there somewhere, <laugh>? Um, maybe, maybe not, not yet .
Speaker 2:It's out there somewhere. Uh , where it is, I , I don't know , <laugh> , it has been unbelievably , uh, frustrating. Yeah. Um, on the development construction side of things, construction costs are still way too high. That's coupled with interest rates that are way above where they used to be. And it is very, very difficult to get the economics to pencil out on a new construction project. Unfortunately, I don't think that's gonna change , uh, anytime soon. And those headwinds for new construction and development are happening at a time where there's a lot of , uh, acquisition opportunity that that's out there. Uh, we've identified, you know, three emotional shifts that we think sellers are going through in the marketplace. You've got folks that have been doing this for 20, 30, 40 years, and they're kind of, you know, at the end of the road and ready for retirement. Um mm-hmm <affirmative> . They've gone through four plus years of, of hell on wheels getting through Covid and coming out of the pandemic. And hopefully this is the year we get back to pre pandemic, you know, occupancy. Mm-hmm . And I , I think that's gonna happen, and I think it's gonna be a rocket ship after that because of the supply demand imbalance, in part due to the lack of new supply being brought online , um, through construction. But those folks care a lot about the industry. Uh, they care a ton about their residents and their team members, and they want to make sure whoever they pass the baton to at their business has a similar mindset to them. You know, servant leadership, collaboration mm-hmm . Seniors, living life on purpose. All of those things resonate with that pool of sellers, and that's creating a lot of opportunities where we might not be the highest bidder on a transaction, but we're the best fit for the seller. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And that matters almost as much to those folks as, as the monetary side of the equation. Then you've got the, the tourists as , as we call them, that got into the business. Yeah . I think there's more tourists , the develop the development shops, the, the merchant builders, the , oh, it's seniors housing and the baby boomers, and everything's super easy and it's gonna be great, and we're gonna build all these things. And all of a sudden Covid happens and everybody's like, oh. Pardon my French, this is healthcare and this is a 80% operations business that happens to need a real estate box to operate in mm-hmm <affirmative> . And that epiphany's happening. And those folks are also moving a decent amount of product to folks that are in this for a little bit of the longer term versus the, the development, you know, real estate, you know, pop. And then you've got a lot of the, the companies that were startups that have grown , uh, got to three or five or maybe eight buildings or could be one. And it's just very difficult to get the business to scale. It's tough to have all of the team members you need to manage all those things we discussed earlier , uh, to have a full-blown human resource team and a full blown information technology team. If you got five buildings, you , you can't afford to do that. So you got a potpourri of insourcing this outsourcing that , uh, you don't have any buying power. So procurement is tough. Uh, you don't have any buying power on, on health insurance. That's tough. Uh , general insurance also very tough when you're smaller. You don't have the diversified, you know, pool of, of assets to offer up to a a carrier to get better pricing. Everything's difficult and, but you still have got aspirations to grow. So we think there's gonna be a lot of m and a around those opportunities where it might not just be real estate trading hands, it could be management companies , uh, you know , either being acquired and or merging , um, with a larger group. And, and what we've found in discussions, we've, we've had, you know, and you know, too soon to tell, but I think there's gonna be a lot of activity , uh, this year. I think you're gonna see us , uh, transact in that area this year where, where two groups could maybe run faster together Yeah. Uh , than they can apart. And, you know, we think those three emotional shifts are gonna drive, you know, continued growth and fuel us getting to our goal of 10,000 seniors living life on purpose.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's always that conversation of the sort of the organic growth, which is , uh, you know, it , it , you , you can get there, but it is hard work. I mean, it's all hard work versus growing in partnerships . So I I, I don't disagree. I don't see it as one versus the other, but I , you know, I think we're gonna see certainly plenty of both. So you are part of our group that's helping us and , and the committee that's really behind the, the gr nic growth conference. And, and you know, the reality is that , you know , and obviously you're support of this, is we need to give some of those operators the tools they need to, to grow, grow in smart ways , um, share lessons learned. Um, and because at the end of the day , um, them performing well is sort of, you know, rising tide raises all ships and so forth. So , um, is there any advice that you wish you had early on when you were in some of those early growth stages of those tough years that , um, you , you know, advice that you wish you had gotten or, you know, lessons learned that you would share with others that are in that sort of smaller needing to scale up phase?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll share a couple of of stories there, but, but you're right, that is the exact topic we're gonna be covering Yeah . At the NIC growth conference in, in Indianapolis in in May. So I think it's gonna be a great opportunity for a lot of those, you know, smaller operators to come and learn from folks that started with one and then went to two and got to 10 or 20 or 50, and, and sharing a lot of those lessons learned along the way. And then we're gonna be able to, I think, give folks a lot of real world insight into practical things they can be doing , uh, on their growth journey to get their businesses to, to scale and, and do so in an efficient and, and, and, you know, hopefully as low risk a possible type of a type of a manner. So it's gonna be a great discussion Yeah . In Indianapolis and very much looking forward to sharing a lot of those best practices in the different areas we're gonna be covering. Uh, whether it's employee, you know, related , uh, items, recruitment, retention. Mm-hmm . How do we use data to drive those things? How do we reduce risk , uh, resident, how do we improve health and wellness, value-based care? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Is a big discussion topic that's gonna be happening at spring, Nick , as well as at the growth conference and wrapping ancillary healthcare services around the residents we're, we're serving every day. But going back to the, the lessons learned in advice , God , we, we've been very blessed along the way. One of the unique parts about the senior living industry is it's not like McDonald's and Burger King across the street from one another, where they're just constantly, you know, competing and, and fighting it out. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , our number one competitor are folks staying in their home. Right . So, to that end, you typically see an exceptional amount of, of collaboration and sharing amongst the operators in the space. Whether you go to our Genum conference or Naasha conference or ANIC conference, you see that on display. And when outsiders come and join an organization and show up at one of these things, they literally can't believe. What do you mean you told your competitor, you know, how to run their memory care program, or you shared this technology insight with them . It's, it's like a foreign concept to them. Um, and , uh, I , if, if I could go back and tell myself, you know, 25 years ago , um, you know, some, some recommendations and lessons learned, it would be do not be afraid to, to , to reach out and, and tap your peers and have those discussions. You'll be surprised. They'll, they'll pick up the phone , uh, they'll listen to you , uh, they'll bounce ideas off of you. I I literally just did this with a , a guy I met at a charity event a year ago who's got a 10 unit, you know, memory care community , uh, just west of, of, or east of Minneapolis. And , and he called and they were having some recruitment and retention issues. So we ideated through it. It was 15, 20 minutes. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . I built a relationship. Who knows, maybe something happens between our two groups at some point, right. In the future. But it's leveraged the resources that are there , uh, that the trade groups have put forth. Uh, NIC has been a , a leader there, or a gentleman's been a , a leader there and , and reach out and, and collaborate with, with your peers. And we've benefited from countless thought leaders, you know, in the space , uh, over the years that have just shared a tremendous amount of insight and intellectual property with us that's helped us build our organization. And it's all been in the spirit of we gotta get better together as an industry. And if we do a really, really good job that's going to mitigate the regulatory complexity and all of the waters we need to, to navigate there, it's kinda like a self-policing , uh, mechanism. But it's, it's reach out to your peers and, and, and collaborate. Um, and we did a fair amount of that, but, you know, I wish we would've done more of it earlier on because we've just learned so much , uh, from our peers over the years and it's helped us , uh, in immeasurable ways as we've grown the organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and candidly, there's more now than ever. So there's really not a lack of, of, you know, a network or resources. So , um, well, we appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us, and, and I know the listeners , uh, will as well again. Um ,
Speaker 2:And the way to do that is to come to the Growth conference in May in Indianapolis <laugh> . Wonderful . There'll be lots of us operators there to rub shoulders with. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Indianapolis is great. Shameless
Speaker 2:Plug for the conference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I, I, I'm very passionate about the growth topic. 'cause I think that there , there's smart growth there . You know, people are very, again, open about what has worked, what hasn't worked, and, and this is sort of the first
Speaker 2:Thing . If the company's not busy growing, it's busy dying. And if you want the best people, you need to be growing because they want to grow their careers. It , it is so important and growing is fun, and it's exciting, it's challenging, it's a lot of hard work , um, right . But downsizing is not fun, <laugh> it's not exciting. It , it's more challenging. So point that North Star and , and grow , uh, that that'd be a nugget of advice to share with folks.
Speaker 1:I, I, I've stole this saying a number of years ago. I heard it from somebody that said, pick your hard . Right. It's all hard. So like, you know, pick the hard that's gonna move you in the positive direction versus, you know, stagnation and, and the alternative. Well, thank you again, Ryan. Uh, you know, appreciate it and , um, look forward to continuing , to watching your organization and the great work that you're doing. So thank you all , uh, listeners to the Nic Chats podcast, you can access , um, certainly this edition of the podcast as well as other Nic chats podcasts on the NIC website is@www.nic.org . Thanks for listening today.
Speaker 2:Thanks Lisa. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:That's it. Awesome. Great conversation. I feel like I could talk for hours, but that was awesome. Really appreciate your time. I know you're busy.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. So , okay . I'm gonna miss you next week. So I'm up in Canada at one of my wife's , uh, snowboard races, but , uh, Chris will be there talking on the value-based care panel Yeah . With , with a few folks. So definitely say hi to him and, and , um, Adam on my team. I haven't met him yet, sitting right behind me. Uh , we'll be out there as well, so be good . Awesome .
Speaker 1:Well , good luck to your wife.
Speaker 2:Yep . Enjoy Sandy Diego . Appreciate it. Thanks .
Speaker 1:See Ryan. Bye .