NIC Chats Podcast with Sean Kelly

Sean Kelly, President and CEO of Front Porch, one of the nation’s largest not-for-profit senior living providers, joins the NIC Chats podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of senior living. Sean shares his unique journey into the industry, reflecting on childhood experiences that shaped his perspective on community and intergenerational connections. He offers insights into the changing needs and expectations of baby boomers, emphasizing the importance of engagement, purpose, and community integration in senior living environments. 

Hear Kelly’s perspective on the challenges and opportunities facing the sector, including the need for creative partnerships, innovative service models, and addressing middle-market affordability. He also discusses Front Porch's strategic focus on culture, performance, and leadership development. Kelly concludes with a call to action for industry leaders to amplify their voices and change societal perceptions about aging, highlighting the potential for personal growth and discovery in later life. 

Want to join the conversation? Follow NIC on LinkedIn.

We want to hear from you! Let us know what you think of our podcast by giving us a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Transcript

Lisa McCracken: 0:03

Hi everyone. Welcome to the NIC Chats podcast. My name is Lisa McCracken. I'm the head of Research and Analytics with NIC. Very excited to have today with us, Sean Kelly , the president, CEO of Front Porch, who I've known for many years. So thank you for carving time out of your, what I know is a very busy schedule, Sean , to, to spend some time with me today and our NIC audience who listens to these podcasts.

Sean Kelly: 0:28

Well, thank you, Lisa. And, you know, it's my pleasure and then some. And you also know , like I think every other one of us that's working in this space right now, that there is nothing other than a busy schedule. And this time of year, my wife would tell me that there is not a single person that exists that's paying attention, that doesn't have a busy schedule. So, that's right.

Lisa McCracken: 0:49

All good. That's r ight. I guess better than the alternative. So , you know, Sean , I was thinking actually about when I first met you, I've been with NIC a little over a year, was with Zeigler for a decade, with was with Holleran and I'm pretty sure it was during my Holleran days. But for the benefit of our listeners, I would love for you to just, you know, before we dig into all these kinds of trends and your vision for the future and all that fun stuff, to share a little bit about how you got into the industry. I always think it's interesting because as we know sometimes it's a crooked path about how people got into the industry, and it's not always this nice linear, like, "Hey, I wanna grow up and be in the senior living business." And I know you're doing some work around all that too. But can you just share a little bit about how you got to where you are

Sean Kelly: 1:35

Well, for sure. I, you know, I thought about this a lot and I've been asked, you know, we've all been asked this quite a bit and there are very, very few straight lines. I can think of a few young folks that I know who might have it, but I'll start with maybe not how I got into it, but Okay. Reflected for quite a bit on I think why I was predisposed to it, Lisa. And it goes back to when I was a kid , um, you know, there are traditional stories around how people get in and it's grandparents or something happened with direct, somebody directly related to a person. But in my case , the story goes that my brother Peter and I, you know, we had, we were mom and apple pie growing up, and unfortunately in our formative years, as can happen in life , our parents got divorced. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . So we're like fourth and sixth grade, and my dad moves us super close to his parents, very close to where he grew up. So we spent the preponderance of our growing up lives, you know, late grammar school, adolescence, middle school, high school, et cetera. And thereafter, even in some cases , not just close to our grandparents, but very often, like completely immersed in their lives. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And in my case, you know, my grandmother, my dad's mom was, you know, from the town where they lived. She was incredibly social. She was incredibly kind in every way, you know, whether it's at church or at the schools or the neighborhood. And she had a ton of friends and family around her. And as the story goes there, she would have, on Tuesdays, she would have her friends come over and some family members to get their hair done. Like to the point where in my grandparents' laundry room on the first floor, there was one of those old fashioned hair dryers that's like a spaceship. Oh, I know . Yeah , yeah. You know, the big chair , the spaceship goes on. And there was a woman that whom I know well, that would come in and do their hair. And I'd often be there, you know, I'd be watching TV and this big Kitchen, and everybody's, you know, they're smoking, this is in the seventies, you know, they're smoking, they're drinking, they're getting their hair done, they're talking about stuff. And they noticed that I was always curious about what they were drinking, and they were drinking high balls in these high ball glasses. And it was a different color from the milk, orange juice or Coke that I was drinking. And at a point in time, I would ask, and my grandmother always saying , oh, we're just having some booze. Well, they wanted me to feel a part of what they were doing so much that they made me my own booze <laugh> , but my own booze to create that brownish color was made out of Coca-Cola and Tropicana Orange juice. So that became, so they, my point is they invited me in and I was just sort of one of the gang from the time that I was a super young kid. That was number one, number two, in that same house, my grandfather, my grandmother's husband was the, was the doctor in the town where they lived. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . One of the last one, doctors to have done house calls. If you've seen Field of Dreams. My grandfather bore a striking resemblance to Moonlight Graham mm-hmm <affirmative> . Doc Graham . And in the way that he, you know, carried the bag in a trench coat, a commanding presence and so forth, he was also incredibly generous and kind mm-hmm <affirmative> . So in that same house where my brother and I were often, where my aunts and uncles, my dad's younger siblings had mostly gone off , we would be with my grandparents, we'd have these events with their friends, but my grandfather would also reach out to patients of his who didn't have a way forward or a way out or someone to network with or, or someone , uh, a place to live a community. And there were more than a handful of his patients and patients relations that lived in that house over periods of time, literally lived there. And if they didn't live there or they lived there for a while , they'd be back for Thanksgiving dinner or for Christmas. It was amazing. And I, you know, it was not unusual for me to be sitting around and talking to a person when I was 12 years old about , you know, what he thought it was like coming outta the battle of the bulge, you know? Wow . Or what it was like to be , uh, a young professional woman, you know, working in the forties and fifties mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I just, so that was sort of always in me, you know. And , um, once I got exposed to quote senior living , uh, just by chance I was working for a construction manager, I got introduced to development, and then I was very lucky to , um, to have been given a chance to meet and work with Avery Rockefeller, Rockefeller and Doug Powell particularly, and, and really get close to what this business was mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Because it's not about building buildings, it's not about transactions. And God knows Lisa, it's not about, you know, everyone's stereotype of what a nursing home is. Right . And a lot more to be said about that. So I was quick to discover kind of what quote , senior living at its best could be through the eyes and brains and actions and generosity, particularly of Avery and Doug . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I was sort of taken by, this is a lifestyle that my grandparents, my grandmother especially, would have so thrived in mm-hmm <affirmative> . But they wouldn't have had the foggiest idea. Right . Not the foggiest idea that it was even a thing. So, you know, the rest is kind of history. And then I, I was very, very fortunate to be, you know, around some really amazing people. I did a lot of work with, you know , retirement living services. I was really kind of, I had an itch to scratch to get close to a provider. And I was very, very fortunate to have John Diffy be, you know , among my, many, many mentors, and I still have him . Um, Judy Braun, our Chief operating officer, taught me more about human connection as it relates to operations than almost anybody I've met. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And even Bob Kramer, you know, he has been so generous with me over the years, and, and I've learned a lot. So, you know, I came to this like, like most, you know, crooked path by accident, but it's very, very clear to me anyway, that I'm, I'm doing, I think I'm doing the work that I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah.

Lisa McCracken: 7:48

Um , that is so awesome. And I would've loved to have met your grandparents <laugh> . They sound like fascinating people. And that's where , I mean, the thing that I appreciate about this sector is, I feel like there is an opportunity for that personal connection and living your life story in many ways. And I, I think we need to continue to do a better job of, of talking about that, because it can be a very fulfilling sector.

Sean Kelly: 8:13

I agree with you. And I think there's a whole lot of discussion around where are we going and, you know, that personal connection or that personal connectivity that if you would, purpose mining is, is really fundamental to what it is that drives a person, any person, especially an older person. And I think needs to be kind of at the top of our minds when we think about the kinds of experiences that we hope to , uh, provide for, nourish, foster when it comes to inviting people into the communities or services that we provide.

Lisa McCracken: 8:48

Well, I think that's a good segue into what I wanna spend a few minutes on, so it's the customer or consumer, whatever you call them. And we've been talking about the baby boomers, you know, forever, and they're really, they are here now, you know, in some communities a little bit more than others. And we've been talking a lot about how they have different needs and you know, they're gonna have different preferences and we need to adapt and so forth. So I'd love to know your thoughts in terms of, first of all, fundamentally, do you think that they are a different cohort and customer than what we served in the past? And are we prepared? Are we ready? And what do you think, you know, if not, what needs to evolve for us to be relevant? I think one of the things I do worry about a little bit is we talk about, oh, the demographic wave and so forth, is that we get a little complacent and just think, you know, Hey, we can prop up our feet because there's this huge plethora of seniors and, you know, many have the ability to pay and they're gonna come in our doors . So I just, it'll allow for you to do a little bit of , uh , a brain dump on what you see. Is that consumer

Sean Kelly: 9:52

Good luck with that. A brain dump.

Lisa McCracken: 9:56

For the next two hours.

Sean Kelly: 9:57

It's pretty empty, Yeah , it's a lot of fairly empty in there. I am starting to replace some Seinfeld trivia with other relevant stuff, Lisa, but yeah , the boomers are different. Listen, we've been talking about this "boomers are different" for 20 years. They're not different from everybody, though, you know, on mass, you know, we had heard that the baby boomers are gonna be a lot more demanding. They were going to , um, demand transparency. They were going to quote , "demand a seat at the table." They were going to want to have input, not want demand to have input in what they, what you are doing as a provider. Um, they have an expectation that they're not just, you know, living in a community or living in a building, but joining a movement in many cases, you know, most of these folks are recognizing that if they are to choose into community, whether it's bricks and mortar or that of another sort, that they not only need to know what it is that they might get from that community, but what might they give to it, and what point of view might that community have, you know, what, what measures for advocacy and volunteerism and other things that go along with living a life can be fueled by this community that they may or may not choose. So, you know, I think at the end of the day, and I say that's not, you know, not, there are a lot of people that have been around the block many, many times before the baby boomers ever sort of came of age. And I was lucky, I think, to have been incredibly well exposed to the whole notion of just let's, none of this works unless we listen. Um, when I was growing up in this business, learning about what it might take to generate a development that would attract people to come and live and grow and, you know, spend their lives , the thing that was beat into my head always was, you've gotta pay attention to what it is that people say that they want. What's important to them? And how does that manifest in the programs and the services and the properties that you might provide? If you aren't willing to spend the time to listen, you're very likely, at best, to deliver something that's not gonna be relevant to the market that you hope to serve. And then I go to Kendall, you know, an amazing organization Born A Quaker Values that , you know, and those values are the very core insist that in every single being, every single person, there is something to be honored, something to be heard, something to be sought after <laugh> . And, you know, that's always resonated with me. It's been lifeblood for Kendall, and I've had a chance to interact with, you know, people on the provider side through my Kendall affiliations, and of course the people that have chosen into that lifestyle over many, many years. So I fast forward to today, and here I am at Front Porch, and the game is changing all around us. And we have amazing people that are on the, on the provider sort of staff side that are super inclined to demonstrate the degrees of respect that invite questions and commentary and advice and counsel across, you know, our populations of residents and those folks that participate in our programs. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , having said that, you know, there are also lots of folks that really kind of gripped the arms on their chairs really, really tightly, because inviting all of that dialogue , inviting all of that engagement can absolutely feel like, and sometimes result in a loss of control or chaos. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . So I think, you know, to me, engagement and truly creating venues where folks, residents and staff, frankly, and future residents, future consumers, where they have an opportunity to learn about what you're doing, why you are doing it, and where they are genuinely sought for counsel advice and what matters to them. If you would, you know, those are table stakes. Yeah. We have to know how to be able to do that because Yeah . And , and oh, by the way, Lisa, yes. The bricks and mortar matter Yes. The quality of the programming matters. Yes. The cost matters and where it is matters, and is it up to date matter , all that stuff matters. And so does the environment into which you are inviting people to become a member of any community that you have an association with. So yeah, it's changed. I would just offer that it's now, you know, that to me that was the, you know, 10 to 20% of the crowd that we've served, this is now the 80 to 90% of the crowd that we intend to serve.

Lisa McCracken: 14:22

Yeah. I appreciate you. And I feel like intuitively, I've known that and you can feel that in certain organizations versus others, but I've never heard somebody detail that as much in terms of, okay, what can you get by coming here, but what can you give? And I do think because it's easier, you know, it's easier to stay in your own home these days. Now, again, if you can afford it, and we will talk a little bit about the affordability piece. Yeah . But, it's, you know, where are we positioning as, you know, we can help you, you know, really not just have the best the care. And , and you know, we, Bob Kramer has talked a lot about that we can't sell sickness and care, you know, we gotta sell , you know, it's the WellSpan not just lifespan and all of that stuff, but it's , um, where can you come and we can help you be a part of being your best self? This is not a period , necessarily a decline, even though that can be a trigger often for people in our communities. But that it's that consumer engagement piece that I, do think feels and looks differently, but that can be a lot of work. That's a cultural thing. And you mentioned the control word. I think that that is a different, for lack of a term, business model and cultural and in mindset that I don't think every organization has these days.

Sean Kelly: 15:38

Yeah for sure. And I guess a couple things. Number one, you know, the whole notion of, you know, folks staying in their home or in their home or not. I would say that in the whole, the whole idea of community, especially since covid at least as you well know, has been regenerated to mean something more than just, I'm on a campus, I'm in a building, I'm among these specific people within this specific place. And I really do think that there is an incredible place for us. I think we have an opportunity and both an opportunity and an obligation to start to play off of our, if you would, our expertise in community. You know, creating spaces where people have a genuine opportunity to connect with one another and discover things together that they may not other wise have , uh, discovered on their own. And in those things to, to do different things in their lives, again, for the wider world or for themselves or the people that they care about. Um, so, you know, as an example, we have loads of, if you would, social connection programs, learning programs, both on the, if you would, market rate and the affordable side and in between. And, and I think those are really, really important exemplars mm-hmm <affirmative> . As much as they are also sort of seeding the ground for the kinds of programming that we need to associate with our market rate communities in the future. Right . We're working on a property in Los Gatos , California. Um, it's a property that was closed down. It's an incredibly , uh, wealthy marketplace. It's been incredibly difficult to get the entitlements. They seem to be coming together. And we've got this beautiful piece of property up on the hill. And we were lucky to have just gotten this incredible endorsement from a planning commission locally, which, like, you never get <laugh> . And a part of why they offered us this endorsement was because for the last year and a half, we've been living out our promise that what we build there will be designed to be a linchpin in the greater community, not just a community unto itself. In fact, we were able to secure some property along the main street that gives us direct access to the walkable community that is, if you would, the Los Gatos Town Center mm-hmm <affirmative> . And we intend to build out what we would describe as a center for health and wellbeing, which is designed to deliver so many of the enriching services and programs that one might find in a traditional, if you would high end C -C-R-C mm-hmm <affirmative> . But deliver them out into the wider community. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I do think that there is a, it , it serves two ways, three ways, you know, it helps us expand our mission. Um, I think it recognizes that there's an opportunity to diversify revenue, frankly, and build out , um, you know, a pipeline to the community, but also to, you know, invite people to join in with all kinds of programs that people love. And the last thing that it does though, it helps more people that would never otherwise think about moving into a bricks and mortar community, discover that there may be more to life, especially life as they get older than they might have guessed. Right. And I think those sorts of things , um, you know, done well and then scaled and then done well again, and again and again are gonna be really, really important. Right . But they will rely on, you know, you gotta have scale sophistication, a lot of resources, a lot of great partners, and at some level, they're gonna rely on us finding another way to source revenue to provide for these services to a wider, if you would , um, swath of the marketplace. And that gets into, you know, what is really healthcare and where does that $5 trillion really go? And might it be reallocated to bigger and better things so that more people can, you know, spend time, money, and effort, you know, making their lives , the lives that they want better, as opposed to trying to fix stuff that's not often very easily fixable, if at all, at the day . Right,

Lisa McCracken: 19:30

Right. Well, so yeah, I appreciate that you went down the path a little bit around some of the partnerships. And I love that that model where, you know , so that community integrated model where , um, right, you're not this isolated entity within a greater community, because I think the benefits are so great, whether on the workforce side of things, or only for the residents, for the community and so forth. So, just wanna just , uh, talk a little bit around that, that power partnership . Because I do think at the end of the day, I think there's benefit to expanding, you know, whether it's the continuum of services, what you do, where you do it, and so forth. But we also can't always be the end all be all Yeah . For everybody. Yeah. We do know that that scale and sophistication increasingly matters. It's, it's just, it's complicated and increasingly complicated. So what role do you see for creative partnerships in our space and any observations of what you see within our sector that can sometimes get in the way of organizations exploring this partnerships? And maybe if that, that control word that you mentioned previously?

Sean Kelly: 20:34

Yeah. Well, that's, you're leading the witness now.

Lisa McCracken: 20:37

We don't need to go down any case studies ,

Sean Kelly: 20:38

But <laugh> , but I , so let's see. You know, the opportunity is about , I think you're right. I , and I think for us this has been important too . What is it that we really do at , at the core of everything? And , I do think, and I've had colleagues , um, Kari Olson, who's the president of our Center for Innovation and Wellbeing, you know, she's reminded me over and over again, that, you know, our core business is really, you know , community and, you know, and it is to generate community in all of its forms, wherever they may, wherever it may be, and doesn't require only buildings. And, and that's so in common with, you know, one of the key values that I've been sort of brought up with, it was reinforced when I was at RLS . It was even more clarified in my time at Kendall. And I think now is the time to see it amplified even more. And in that community, you know, there's stuff that you want to do and there's also stuff that you need. And among those things that you need, we do an amazing job at providing for socialization and care coordination and, you know, opportunities to create venues. And we are amazing conveners, and we can do food and hospitality and all that other jazz . We don't necessarily do, you know, something like a PACE program. Right . We certainly don't do , um, acute care. We certainly don't do primary care. Uh, we certainly don't provide insurance, although you might say long-term , you know, life care versus, and long-term care insurance reform. And we do do that, that's fine. But I'm talking about global risk and the traditional healthcare insurance. And I think therefore, you know, if what we're trying to do is, you know, if we had a blank slate and wanted to deliver the transformative sort of product and set a programs for the future that would be appealing and mm-hmm <affirmative> . Necessary and not just welcome, but enthusiastically embraced, let's build that out. Let's try and understand what our role might be in that, if you would, you know, transformational product. And then what else do we need? And just name the whole handful of some of the others that we need. And, and we're lucky enough in this time and , and spa place in our sector, Lisa, that we're not alone in sort of recognizing that the game's gotta change, right . So we've gotta deliver services and programs that come from the heart. We've gotta do them in a way where we limit, if not eliminate the amount of, if you would, heat loss or waste mm-hmm <affirmative> . So we have to be hyper efficient, while at the same time we have to understand that investment in human connection and relationship building and listening and engagement has to also come along for that ride. And, you know, we've been talking about, you know, residents or consumers or customers, if you would, I would submit that the same goes for the staff mm-hmm <affirmative> . That we hope to keep grow with and gain. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know , they too, you know, so I'm sitting here saying, we need to think differently about what it might be to become older as we all are doing, we hope. Um, and, and, you know, to demonstrate a degree of respect that invites somebody's perspective in and, and expects that that perspective is gonna actually make us better beyond what just that one person might think or have to offer. Right. If we're not doing that with our teams, then, you know, we're just associating them from a professional career where there's growth, where there are growth opportunities as well.

Lisa McCracken: 23:58

Right. I wanna spend a few minutes , um, on affordability. So as you mentioned earlier, you have everything from, you know, a higher end entry fee, CCRC to you have affordable housing , um, that you've worked with. So you know that Nick has spent a lot of time on the middle market and , and that group in the middle. And you could argue, you know , we , we need more of all of the above, you know, with, with the , you know, to serve the, the demand and so forth. But do you have any insights as how we can do better as an industry and , and provide more options for that middle income older adult? I'm not expecting you've got the, the magic formula Yeah . Secret sauce and have it all figured out. But , um, if you have any pearls of wisdom or insights on this, just , um, would buff to to hear. Yeah .

Sean Kelly: 24:44

I I I , I do think I, i sure I , I mean, I'd say this a lot. I remember when I first came to , um, front porch, and I , I would've said the same thing when I first arrived at Kendall, when I was introducing myself to people, Lisa, I said, listen, you can ask me anything and, and I'll answer. And, and if I know, I will tell you that it's something I know. If I don't know, I'll tell you that I don't know, but I may have an opinion mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , in which case it's subject to change <laugh> . And I feel the same way about this. You know, and I, I do think that, I think the stuff we were just talking about a moment ago around, if you would, unbundled services delivered to provide for care coordination in different ways without all of the, if , if you will, accoutrements that come with a high end , if you would, or even a a a a medium N-C-C-R-C is a part of the answer. And, and it really does acknowledge that as human beings, we, we seek purpose, we seek one another out, we seek social connection. And, and in doing so, we often find ways to enrich our own lives in ways that we otherwise might not. And, and I think there's a lot in there and that sort of whole population health strategy around the social determinants that, that might help us find our way. And you're still hearing me, Lisa? My screen just went. Yeah . Okay. So I , I think there's a lot in, in that, you know, population health strategy and in those social determinants that, you know, that that shows us that there are means for supporting people's lives as they age that aren't as wildly expensive. Right. And wildly difficult to understand and access as what we see in the traditional healthcare or sick care system. Right . So I I do think getting on that, you know, continuing, you know, on, in that movement and becoming a more relevant part of that movement toward real value based care models that either partner with or find some ways to access payer sources that are as progressed as we think we need to be Yeah . Is really, really important On the real estate side, listen, housing matters, environments matter. And as much as I think we need to be deliver , you know, building out these service and programming hubs that can, that can be agnostic mm-hmm <affirmative> . To delivery to, you know, a building or an intentional building or a greater community where folks are living wherever they live. Um, we also know that, you know, when folks are able to be associated with a community that is, you know, condensed, if you will, into a building structure, it makes service delivery that much easier. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . It creates economies of scale that otherwise are harder to access when you're in a wider community, even with technologies. Um, and, and people dig it, you know, so long as they can afford it, and so long as they can be tuned into discovering what that value proposition might look like for them. So I do, you know, I think on some sides of senior, the senior living sector, I think we have to get over ourselves and do a little bit, you know, it's hard to change that model where we just want to give everybody everything they might ever want.

Lisa McCracken: 27:46

We're very good at the service creep.

Sean Kelly: 27:47

Yeah. And , and , and I say the same thing in the square footage creep and the , the , the granite countertop creep and all that other jazz. But, but there is a middle space because the , you know , right . The other ri the other risk is to go all the way backwards in my opinion, and just assume that any defunct from me otherwise not useful building is just plain good enough for an older person. Right. So I , you know, and there are plenty that are, that can be, you know, brought forward and made amazing. And there are a lot that a lot of people, you know, because, just because it's the right price and just because it's in the right spot , um, you know, back to respecting the person mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , you know , I think on the middle market side, we've gotta do, I know we need to do, we at front porch need to do a lot more work to mine , if you will, the sensibilities and the psychographics of that middle marketplace so that we find that sweet spot in between ads just playing good enough. And it's, you know, we can only build, you know, the glitz and glamor of the CRCs that we've always done. So we're working on that and we have a couple of cool opportunities , um mm-hmm <affirmative> . In some of our markets do that. And in some markets that we're not in yet to do that. And I, and I welcome it, and that's another area for partnership, you know? Yeah . Great . You know, we don't have to be the, the king of the, you know, the, the multi-person multifamily , uh, home builder, but we can be the king of supporting community. Right . And I think that's really our work.

Lisa McCracken: 29:18

Right. So I wanna wrap up with , um, so we're recording this here, the end of 2024, which seems hard . I remember when we were celebrating like Y 2K and everybody was, that seems like a lifetime ago, which it was. So we're, we're, we're entering into 2025. So anything you'd like to share about your outlook for the next year? And, and to the extent you say, Hey, you know, these are sort of what I see as , um, goals for us in , in 2025.

Sean Kelly: 29:46

Well, I, you know, we talked a lot about the consumer and potential residents and different markets and, and so on. We touched on staff and usually, you know, Lisa, gosh, better than I , I mean, you talk all over the place , all over the world all the time. And, you know, we didn't spend a lot of time on quote labor or, you know, workforce leadership. I mean, and, and I think they, they do talk to each other. And I think there's, so for 2025, I , I would, I, I know this is something that we , it's important to us at Front Porch. We've sort of , we've adopted a new strategic plan that we just laid down last in July of this year. Um, and among , you know, we're , we wanna build out a culture where everybody matters, we aspire to this, and we wanna make sure that we have the support systems. We just hired a chief culture and community officer, oh, by the way, which I'm super proud of, and that'll be a whole division. This is not lip service to that work. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And it's, you know, but anyway, we want to drive that culture. We also obviously need to focus on performance and leverage scale and sophistication and deliver systems and programs that make us, you know, as good as we can be and squeeze every, every single penny out of every dollar that we invest, because we need to invest it across the board. And we, of course, are gonna foc continue to focus on growth through our Center for Innovation and Wellbeing, which is actively involved and excited about the different applications from AI that go from the back of the house, you know, and support our underlying systems that make the business run better, to supporting the front of house , front of the house delivery systems, like our partnership with Embodied Labs, where we are literally inviting people to change the way they think about what it is to meet another person mm-hmm <affirmative> . And how they might deliver care service in the program to that person. So all that stuff is super cool, but we're also focusing on leadership. And I guess that's where I wanna leave off for 2025 and what we say about leadership at Front Porch right now, Lisa, and I think it goes across the board. Number one, it has to be able to play in the space that you and I were talking about earlier, to recognize the different expectations in leadership. So that , um, this is not administrative work, but it is, this is not social and relational work only, but it sure is that to be sure, this is not strategic work, but it is , um, this is, you know, very, very sophisticated high-end work. And I want us to be able to shine a light on what that work is, shine a light on the purpose that folks have found in that work, and may still find focus on the professionalism, what it takes to get to that spot, and how do we provide the means and methods for folks to climb LA that ladder increasingly as we consolidate, like healthcare systems have 20 years, 20 years or more ago , um, the pay into this profession is getting up to where I think it must be. And that's all amazing and important . You know , we're building relationships with colleges and university and all that other stuff, but what we need to do in 2025 in an element, the other side of our leadership that we are demanding of ourselves is to, is to bring a different voice, a bigger voice into the world, even beyond, you know, ourselves. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know, we mm-hmm <affirmative> . The cacophony of ourselves. We are all on board with the changes that need to come and, and we want to kind of, you know, stick our chests out and walk into this next era. The reality, I think, is all the cool stuff that we may do, all of the inspiration that comes from our hearts and minds is, is not going to be as impactful as it can and maybe must be unless we can somehow stimulate and probably be a part of changing the way the world actually thinks and discusses what this all means. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know mm-hmm <affirmative> . Until we can live in a world where people are really, really not just tuned into, but inspired Right . By the things that are possible in their own lives, right. As they get older, not just get stuck on listen. And, you know , we talk about this a lot, it's to be inspired by what is possible, what I've yet to discover in my own life, but not to ignore that as that life goes on, stuff changes too, and stuff gets harder too . And I lose people and things too. And I can't move around in the same way that I used to, but I'll be damned, I can still also though do more for more and for myself. Right . And, and we gotta change. We, I , and I know it's happening. And that's, that's a whole other story. And I know we have a couple specific , that'll

Lisa McCracken: 34:01

Be another, that's a future podcast change. How

Sean Kelly: 34:03

About that ? Yeah. I mean, and , and I'll tell you that , that's truly, and, and you know, listen, there's a , I went out to California for a lot of reasons and, and the possibility for standing on a bigger platform and, and yeah . Getting louder about some of this was definitely one of them. Lisa and I, and I, so I think for all of us, that's a clarion call. And, and I know it's something we're working on in 2025 for real. We always have been, but this, it's getting a little more real as we move forward. Yeah . So, well, thank

Lisa McCracken: 34:28

You Sean . I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and again, given your time and appreciate everyone listening to this Nick Chats podcast version. If you wanna access other esteemed guests like Sean , you can go to our website and and check them out. But thank you again, Sean . Appreciate your time with us today.

Sean Kelly: 34:44

Lisa, thank you so much. What a pleasure. And so good to see you as always. Yeah , likewise.

Lisa McCracken: 34:48

Alright , thank you.