The NIC Chats podcast was “On the Road” at the 2022 NIC Fall Conference. NIC Chief Economist, Beth Mace, was joined by VIUM Capital’s Steve Kennedy, co-founder and Executive Managing Director, and Alison Lemle, Chief Underwriter, who shared their experiences and insights on today’s capital and debt markets for the senior housing and health care sectors. Hear Kennedy and Lemle’s perspectives on how the pandemic has reshaped the industry, where they see the business heading over the next few years, and their thoughts on how to respond to today’s capital market conditions.
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We want to hear from you! Let us know what you think of our podcast by giving us a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen.
The NIC Chats podcast was “On the Road” at the 2022 NIC Fall Conference. NIC Chief Economist, Beth Mace, was joined by VIUM Capital’s Steve Kennedy, co-founder and Executive Managing Director, and Alison Lemle, Chief Underwriter, who shared their experiences and insights on today’s capital and debt markets for the senior housing and health care sectors. Hear Kennedy and Lemle’s perspectives on how the pandemic has reshaped the industry, where they see the business heading over the next few years, and their thoughts on how to respond to today’s capital market conditions.
Want to join the conversation? Follow NIC on LinkedIn.
We want to hear from you! Let us know what you think of our podcast by giving us a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Hello and welcome to the NIC Chats podcast. My name is Beth Mace and I'm NIC's chief economist. Thank you for joining us today. The focus of the NIC Chats podcast is talking to interesting people that I think you'd really like to hear from. As you listen today, I hope you'll find some humor, some insights, inspiration, and hopefully what I call an aha moment when a light bulb may go off and you'll come away with something inspirational. Let me tell you a bit about the structure of the today's event. First, I'm going to tell you three statements about each of my guests. Two of those statements will be true and one will be false. Throughout the podcast you'll learn which is true, and which is false. Second, there are three stated questions with each each podcast. The first is what's the largest challenge facing our industry. The second what's one thing to grow talent in our industry. And third, what's an innovative idea on how to strengthen our industry. Now, as I say, let's get on with the show. So I'm delighted that I have two guests today for our NIC Chats podcast. And I want to just mention that we are broadcasting live from the NIC Fall Conference here in Washington, D.C., at the Marriott Marquee. My first guest is Steve Kennedy, who is the executive managing director from VIUM Capital. My second guest is Alison Lemle. She's a managing director and the chief underwriter also for V IUM Capital. Thank you both for joining us today. As I mentioned, I have three statements about Steve. Two are true, and one is false and also three about Alison. Two are true and one is false. So for Steve, we'll find out again, if these are true or false, are you a scratch golfer, and the top golfer at VIUM Capital? Don't tell me yet! Do you have a house in Columbus, Ohio, that was once the home of a former Ohio State Buckeye football coach who won a national championship? Or, did you go to the same undergraduate university as Steve Carrell and Jennifer Garner? And Alison, have you in fact visited all 50 states or have you never seen any of the star wars films, or if you weren't doing the job you're doing at VIUM Capital right now, would you actually open a sandwich shop that would be called between the slices? Stay tuned and we'll find out. Steve, you and Kass Matt launched VIUM Capital in April 2020- good timing right after the beginning of the pandemic-with the goal of becoming a premier leader in financing in the seniors housing and care industry. If I understand correctly, you provide permanent financing through FHA and HUD, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, as well as proprietary bank bridge financing. In your first two and a half years, you have closed 115 transactions, totaling about$3 billion, including funding for 250 separate projects across 27 states. So as an executive manager, director of VIUM, what else would you like our audience to know about?
Steve Kennedy:Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that introduction. It's been a wild two and a half years. I mean, we literally launched on April fool's day at the beginning of a pandemic.
Beth Mace:Oh, there you go.
Steve Kennedy:<laugh> And that wasn't intentional necessarily. It was sort of a long time in the making, but, fortunately, the six partners- we've worked together for over a decade. I think that's unique, you know, for a lender in our space, and we focus exclusively on this space, skilled nursing assisted living, memory care, independent living, but probably what's most unique about our company, the way we were formed, our minority partner is a niche bank out of the Midwest. And it was a bank that was created for nothing more than to provide bridge loans for HUD takeout. But they were a multi-family shop, they still are, but they wanted to get into healthcare. We knew healthcare, we never had a balance sheet before, and so we've really been able to use that to provide relatively quick cost effective financing for our clients. And it's catapulted a lot quicker of a growth than we would've initially anticipated.
Beth Mace:How does that work to have a balance sheet?
Steve Kennedy:A lot of times, an acquisition that a buyer is going make, you know, we'd love to fund that through HUD. But at the end of the day, HUD's a long process. You know, it's gonna take six, nine months to get a HUD deal closed. And so a direct loan from our bank partner allows us to execute typically within 60-ish days. Which as a buyer you need, if you're the seller, you're not gonna wait around for nine months to get a HUD deal done.
Beth Mace:Mm-hmm, exactly right. And what is it that VIUM offers that your competitors don't?
Steve Kennedy:Yeah. You know, I think a few things, obviously a lot of HUD lenders, do not have a direct balance sheet. So we do, we also closed a debt fund, earlier this year. And what that does is that that allows us to provide non-recourse largely bridge loans.
Beth Mace:You must be popular.
Steve Kennedy:Popular, right,< laugh>. And so that's been a nice augmentation of our offering and, at the end of the day, we're just trying to listen to what our clients need and try to make sure we're structuring capital in a way that meets their needs, but also clears the market and provides us an appropriate return and allows us to grow the business the way we want.
Beth Mace:Have you had to change any processes or anything in the last six months with the change in interest rates?
Steve Kennedy:Yeah. Good question. I mean, between interest rates, obviously, inflationary pressures, the Medicaid rate increases in various states, there's a lot of noise in the income statement. And so have we had to change anything? I don't think necessarily, but we are being, I think, even more disciplined than we were about making sure that we're putting on bridge loans that have a very clear line of sight to HUD, Fannie, or Freddie takeout.
Beth Mace:Ah, okay. Very good. So Alison, you joined VIUM Capital, I think just recently in January of 2022.
Alison Lemle:I did. I did.
Beth Mace:And you have been the chief underwriter, I think at a lot of organizations Lument, RX Red Capital. So you have a combined experience of underwriting of over 15 years. So what does that entail to be the chief underwriter at VIUM right now?
Alison Lemle:Yeah, so it it's been a really exciting year for me professionally after joining VIUM and leaving my predecessor organization I'd been with for 15 years. But I knew it was an opportunity that I wanted to take because it was a chance to reunite with some individuals that I had worked with previously, who not only did I respect, but I really feel like they were market leaders in the sector. So, you know, my role within VIUM is working with our team to drive business forward, ensuring we are underwriting to a top quality credit standard and working with our partners at merchants and HUD. Um, so, besides me, we've got a really strong analytical pool. They're really tasked with, you know, screening transactions, processing, closing, under my guidance. And it's a critical role, I think, to have at VIUM not only from a HUD compliance standpoint obviously, but, you know, it's building that credit reputation that's going to help us drive business going forward.
Beth Mace:And same question for you. So how has the world changed in terms of underwriting in the last six months?
Alison Lemle:You know, the last two years it's been an amazing evolution, to Steve's point. I think I would probably say that when the pandemic started, nobody thought it would last as long as it has. So, you know, when we first started, it was getting through those initial days kind of trying to understand the uncertainty, but, you know, with continued pressures on labor costs and occupancy- while still starting to improve being slower than we thought- it's just a kind of continuing evolution that we're always kind of working to wrap our arms around.
Beth Mace:Fair enough. So let me do one of their true false questions with you, Alison.
Alison Lemle:Great.<laugh>
Beth Mace:So have you, in fact, never seen any of the star wars movies.
Alison Lemle:That is true. So I am an only child. I had no brothers or sisters and, my mom was not a star wars fan, so I just never saw them. I had an opportunity to see a few minutes and I think I missed the boat entirely on it being interesting. So have never made it through any of'em.
Beth Mace:Well, my claim to fame on that front would be I've never seen Jaws.
Alison Lemle:Whoa, my goodness.
Beth Mace:And I go to Cape Cod a lot. So actually that was a good thing that I never saw. I'm very glad I never saw Jaws though. So Steve, where do you see VIUM in the next, five years? Where are you going?
Steve Kennedy:Yeah, I think we're pretty confident that we are focused on being the number one, HUD, senior living lender. At our predecessor firm we were for, I think, seven of the last eight years that our partners were there. And we have a platform and most importantly, the people to do it. Mm-hmm<affirmative> our partnership is it's unique, we kind of say we were really forged in fire as we built this company, you know, launching a company at that time. The good news is it brings you even closer together than you might otherwise be.
Beth Mace:Yeah, I bet.
Steve Kennedy:And it's a company we really build on trust. And so we feel confident about that vision. We, you know, from a production standpoint, I think within five years, being able to consistently produce over$2 billion of annual production is realistic. You know, this first half I think we closed$1.3 billion. We closed$300 million in transactions the last two months. And so we're already there and I think that's a realistic goal as far as what we can ultimately get into HUD and also being the leading lender from an advocacy perspective. And what I mean there is, you know, we are so tied to the government as a public/private, really partnership and that's important for us to not just sort of wait and be led, but to lead. And so we made a big investment by having Scott Tittle the former head of Indiana healthcare association. He worked very closely.
Beth Mace:We interviewed him last year.
Steve Kennedy:That's right. He's much smoother and more polished than I am. I think he personifies what we need to be in the industry. And so I'm bullish, I'm taking that position.
Beth Mace:Okay. So I wanna do a truth or not truth with you right now. So, is it true or false that you went to the same undergraduate university as actor Steve Carrell and Jennifer Garner?
Steve Kennedy:It's true. I'm a graduate of Dennison university. It's a great school. Yeah. Great school in Ohio and, yeah, Steve Carrell, Jennifer Garner, just had to give a little props to Dennison University. And that's where I met my wife. And that's where my brother went, so we have strong ties to Dennison.
Beth Mace:That's awesome. That's great. So in your crystal ball, what do you view as opportunities and challenges ahead for VIUM?
Steve Kennedy:Well, for VIUM I think it's remaining disciplined. You know, capital's not unlimited, right. And us continuing to be creative on how we fund our projects. And, and ultimately, you know, I think our team, we've gotta really, we have good people that want to, they always want to say yes to help out their client. But we need to continue to be disciplined of when we say yes and structured deals that are right for us, right. For them, but ultimately have that goal of executing through HUD, Fannie, and Freddie, because that's really, that's where we build our enterprise value. If you're a company like VIUM capital.
Beth Mace:So when might you say no?
Steve Kennedy:We say no a lot. I mean, you know, at the end of the day we kind of stick to our lane. We're not doing huge turnaround deals. Our deals are always covering over one times debt, service coverage out of the gate. Yeah. It's a quicker line of sight. It's a permanent execution. We're not doing new construction right now. Other than, you know, if it's through HUD, we'll partner with other banks and finance companies that do that, that's more in their baliwick. It's really not in ours. And, so yeah, there's a lot of times we'll say no, but hopefully we're not just saying no we're saying not this, but here's how we can get there.
Beth Mace:And are most of your clients relationships that you've had a long time or how do you bring in someone new?
Steve Kennedy:Yeah, it's a little bit of both. I mean, we're fortunate that the six partners over a decade, you know, you develop really important relationships and all over the country, you know, a lot of us did work in the Midwest. Yeah. Scott belongs down in our Austin office, Tony's down in Florida. But we also have the different platforms. We've been able to roll that out and, you know, news flash, the first year we were around, a lot of capital providers pressed pause, but we leaned in. Yeah. And we were able to secure some great clients we had never worked with who were looking for a balance sheet and looking for sort of a new partner to work with.
Beth Mace:Great. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about ESG and DEI what's going on with VIUM on those initiatives.
Steve Kennedy:Yeah. I appreciate you asking that. Diversity, equity and inclusion is I'd say it's at the foundation of what we're doing and when we decided to build the culture and the team, we're doing. It's funny the way I met Merchants, our capital partner out of Indiana, I had actually competed against them back in the day doing 2 0 2 refis. And they were a great shop, but I never had much of a relationship, but shortly after I joined the board of Christo Ray Columbus high school, they learned about that and they opened up and now jump forward, we have a Christo Ray team at VIUM of Samir and Zandra our two students this year after Moses and Aroyya were here last year. But Merchants also is on the board at Providence Christo Ray and Indianapolis, and has a Christo Ray team. So I say that if you don't know about Christo Ray it's in Columbus, it's the most diverse high school. It's all students that are extremely talented, but they come from socioeconomic challenged backgrounds. And they're oftentimes first time college students. So I just share that from a D EI perspective, it's really important to what we're doing and what we'll continue to do.
Beth Mace:That's great. Okay. So now we're gonna switch a little bit, we're gonna talk a little bit more about personal stories and how you both got to where you are today. So Alison, let's start with you. Talk a l ittle bit about your career path and any lessons that you could tell to, you know, younger women or younger men as well o n sort of how to get to the position t hat y ou've achieved.
Alison Lemle:Yeah, sure. So, when I look at individuals, men and women who are finishing up school, we're having conversations with them looking at resumes. I just continue to be impressed with their focus, their determination, and just kind of a general understanding of knowing what they wanna do as they enter the workforce. That was not me, not at all.<laugh> So, you know, I say when I finished school at case Western, the only thing I knew for sure is where I wanted to be geographically. So I was fortunate enough to make some connections, at national city because they were based out of Cleveland and started in their retail banking development program. I was there a little less than two years still sort of unsure of what I wanted to do, but I absolutely knew for sure that retail banking was not for me.<laugh> One of the things that happened during that time though, is national city acquired another bank called Providence of which red capital was a subsidiary. I was able to meet some individuals at red capital and again, not a hundred percent sure that that's what I wanted to do, but I was really engaged and interested in the organization. I loved their culture and I just felt like it was somewhere that would be a good fit for me. So it was an interesting time to fall into there. I started not long before the 2008 housing crisis. Really when FHA started to blow up and you're talking a tremendous amount of volume. Yes. and it was right around the start of the lean program so that's really where my start in the industry began. So, you know, looking at my experience, the advice I tell people is that it's okay not to know where you wanna be right out the gate. But it's really important to look at opportunities maybe outside of what you thought you were gonna do. I always say that if I could speak to my college self now and say, this is where you end up, I don't know if I would've believed it, but you know, it's been an incredible journey for me and one without a whole lot of regret.
Beth Mace:Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with everything, be open for opportunity and be open for change. Right. And Steve, what career lessons would you wanna share with our audience?
Steve Kennedy:I think Alison hit it really well. And I think just being open to whatever opportunities are in front of you and completely engaging yourself in that opportunity and not prejudging, that's probably been the story of both of us. You know, none of us, neither of us graduating from college said, I wanna be in senior housing and healthcare finance<laugh>, but now that we've embraced it, we realize what an awesome opportunity, what a great population to serve from a demographic perspective, from an economic prospective there's so much positive, but it's also complicated. Yeah. But that, you know, complication not having it easy, it creates an opportunity if you've got some grit and you've have got some savvy and you have a good platform and you're with good people, it's actually really create a good business.
Beth Mace:Yeah. And Alison for you, seniors, as a why?
Alison Lemle:Well, I'd like to say there was some magic to how I landed into that, but it's really more timing and less intentional. I mean, I touched on it. I started at red capital at a really interesting time when FHA was just doing so much volume and it was right around the start of the lean program. I think that was my first major professional, I don't know, home run for me because what that did is it sort of leveled the playing field between myself and some of my peers who maybe had some more professional experience than I did, because we were all learning this sort of new program together. And the thing I loved about it is it was always interesting. I never felt bored and I've continued to stay there for all the reasons that Steve said. And just from a professional standpoint, it's given me so many opportunities that there really hasn't been a need to pivot from where I'm at.
Beth Mace:Well, I've been in senior housing for about 25 years, and I have to say, I love it. I always have loved it. And it continually evolves. Yeah. And it's sort of exciting. We're finally, almost at that point, we've all been waiting for, for so long that the baby boomers are almost here to move. Not quite, but, you know, we've been talking about that. I can promise you for a really long time and it's changing and the industry is changing. And, you know, that the whole product type is maturing and you have luxury and you have middle income and you have lots of different focuses and wellness is becoming more important in healthcare. So it's a really interesting, it's completely dynamic.
Alison Lemle:Absolutely.
Beth Mace:So it's been really fun for me. So let's continue on that in terms of your view on senior housing. So, Alison, what are you most optimistic about for the sector? Any concerns you have fromyour point of view?
Alison Lemle:Yeah. I mean, I I'll let Steve be the glass half full person and I'll speak to some of the challenges. And I just think it's gonna be really important to ensure that the HUD and and GSC portfolios remain strong from a performance standpoint. On the HUD side, it's, the portfolio generally has always performed relatively well and they were and that performance has allowed them to weather a lot of the challenges of the pandemic HUD would say, you know, it was their underwriting criteria that helped them to do so. But they haven't been unimpacted for sure. And you're starting to see debt service coverages tighter than probably they've been historically. So it's just gonna be really important for lenders to ensure that we're bringing in strong borrowers, strong credit, good performing assets to the portfolios, just to ensure their continued success.
Beth Mace:And Steve, opportunities and challenges in the industry?
Steve Kennedy:Yeah. I love that. Alison's, she's like the realist and that's important.
Alison Lemle:The ying and the yang. Right?
Steve Kennedy:Exactly. It's the underwriter and the originator. No, I mean, there's challenges but opportunities. I mean, I think you just mentioned like affordable assisted living. Are you kidding me that opportunity, that is a need, you're not kidding. And it's a need that states won't solve, it's a need that senior citizens won't solve and you talk about creative finance when you get tax credits involved and Medicaid waivers and it's state by state. We've done a lot of work in Illinois, the supportive living facility program.
Beth Mace:Yeah. They, they do a lot there. Yeah. So it's fabulous swift, right? Yeah.
Steve Kennedy:The swift program, Ohio, you know, it looks like they may have a house resolution, this next year that may open up some stuff and Indiana has seen a similar thing. So, you know, we think that's a big opportunity and it's one we wanna be positioned to help really lead in.
Beth Mace:I'm really glad to hear that.<laugh> because NIC's doing a lot of focus on middle income and what we call the forgotten middle. And anything we can do to help financing that the operational side is one set of issues, but financing it is certainly another set. So, let's go to some of our standard questions. So what do you think is one of the largest challenges facing our industry?
Steve Kennedy:I'd say political climate. You know, it's no matter where you are, if you're down the middle, if you're Republican, if you're a Democrat, I think our position and Scott Tittle has been great at just educating us on this, is that not having any one party in charge of all branches of government is a good thing you want balance, right. Because if, no matter which party, if there's full control on one side or the other that that can be a threat to what we're doing. And so, you know, political climate is something that I just think is something we watch and we can't necessarily influence, but we wanna be cognizant of.
Beth Mace:Yeah. Very good. Alison, any thoughts in terms of a big challenge facing the industry?
Alison Lemle:I would piggyback off of what Steve has said. I mean, it's something that Scott talks to us a ton about and we're just constantly focused on.
Beth Mace:So that's seems like that's a differentiator actually for VIUM. That you guys are so plugged into sort of the Washington scene and knowing what's going on and then figuring out how to sort of reshape yourself. Reconfigure yourself d epending on what's going on.
Steve Kennedy:I think in Washington and then also all state capitals, I mean, we're such a local business, you know, Medicaid's different in every state, a ffordable, assisted living i s different in every state. And so being tapped in with, you know, the local ACHA NCal chapters and other state associations is important. I look at some of the underwriting we do in Indiana. IGTUPL is different than the Q uip program in Texas. And having that localized knowledge also gives our investors an d o ur fund comfort that, hey, this is a little bit outside th e c ore real estate market, but VIUM's dialed in, they know what's going on and they can best judge those risks when underwriting.
Alison Lemle:And that's tremendously helpful from a HUD perspective as well. You know, HUD is relying on us to provide that expertise. And when we can pull that information that we have, and the experts along with us, it allows us to work through transactions. That would be much more challenging, because they can rely on that expertise that we have.
Beth Mace:That's great. Okay. So, what would be an innovative idea could be all over the map in terms of how to strengthen our industry?
Steve Kennedy:Probably kind of double down on affordable assisted living and looking at construction cost increases and other inflationary pressures. There are existing assets that can be repurposed and make sense for affordable assisted living. It's not all of them, they have to fit, but repurposing and having that low basis of an existing property, we think that's gotta be part of the story rather than just new construction, which needs to be part of it. Uh, but we need to tap into our existing infrastructure, as well.
Beth Mace:Yeah. So if you look at the overall cost for property, about 60% of that is labor expenses. So that limits to some degree what you can do, have you heard of any sort of innovative ideas on how to, sort of address some of the challenges in the labor market?
Alison Lemle:<laugh> yeah. I mean you're seeing a lot of different operators trying to think outside the box. So, you know, it's looking at finding individuals and doing these training programs where you can bring in staff and, you know, offer them opportunities to develop themselves professionally. And then you have a feeder for those employees that you are just not being able to capture externally. I think that's been something that, you know, depending upon who you speak with have various levels of success, but for those that do it, it's been very impactful to them.
Steve Kennedy:And I tell you, somebody who's caught my eye over the last couple years in this industry is Care, Charles Turner. the company he's building, like thinking about stuff in a different way, but we need that. We need those thought leaders. Yeah, absolutely. Some of it's gonna land. Some of it's not gonna land, but, um, anyway, when you ask that question, that's one of the first people I thought about.
Beth Mace:That's interesting. Okay. So let's go back to our truths and not truths, truths and lies so to speak. And Steve, so true of false that you have a house in Columbus, Ohio that was once a former Ohio, Buckeye football coach who won a national championship.
Steve Kennedy:It is true. There's not much interesting about me<laugh> and so that's kind of interesting. We live in the former home of Jim Tressle if you're an Ohio state fan. You usually like Jim Tressle. So he lived there in 2002 when the Buckeyes won their first national championship in about 40 years. And our door knocker is a bronzed Buckeye leaf he was given after winning the the national championship.
Beth Mace:He didn't want that?
Steve Kennedy:I think he forgot it.
Beth Mace:Oh,<laugh> I hope he's not listening. All right. So does that make that you are you a scratch golfer and are you a top golfer?
Steve Kennedy:I'm not I'm, I'm not the top golfer. Our top golfer would be one of our analysts, Garrett Brickley and I met Garrett. He was caddying for me. And then he was an accounting background, an Ohio kid. He played, s ort of semi-professionally and then he reached out when he found out that we were launching VIUM and he was professionally persistent through LinkedIn and we reconnected, but he's like a plus three. He's a great golfer. And h e is a great, great person.
Beth Mace:So one of the takeaways then is tenacity and persistence on LinkedIn. I know a lot of younger people that are doing that right now.
Steve Kennedy:I think appropriate professional makes sense.
Beth Mace:That's great. Okay, Alison, if you could, would you actually open a sandwich shop that would be called between two slices?
Alison Lemle:Yes. So I'm a bit of a sandwich snob and I will go to places and critique. And my husband a while ago said, you should just open up your own if you think you're better than everybody else. And so that started my mind. So definitely that would be what I would do.
Beth Mace:Any favorite sandwich in particular?
Alison Lemle:Ah, you can't pick and choose. I'm a big grilled cheese type fan. So those gourmet ones are exceptional. I love that.
Beth Mace:I just learned how to make a homemade tomato soup that you put little bits of grilled cheese in there. Yes. As a crouton. So there you go.
Steve Kennedy:We do have an analyst, his name is Paul beat. We call him Pete because Pete beat just sounds good. And he is a meatball sub guy and he has a list of in Columbus, Ohio, one through 25 top meatball subs.
Beth Mace:W ow. I hope he posts it to the internet.
Steve Kennedy:Yeah. This is a VIUM thing. The sandwiches and subs.
Beth Mace:Maybe you should create a VIUM sandwich.
Alison Lemle:Absolutely. Right? I like it.
Beth Mace:So I guess that would mean that you haven't visited all 50 states, but are you trying?
Alison Lemle:We're trying. So during the pandemic as an activity, my kids got one of those state maps and we learned about each state and that just got us sort of excited about the opportunity to visit. And so we've been knocking those off and if you're looking for cheap vacations, do this activity and then your kids will be excited to go to wherever you find, as long as you're ticking,'em off the map.
Beth Mace:That's good. So what's next on the schedule?
Alison Lemle:I don't know, we've hit all of the states around us. So I think we're trying to decide where down south we're heading.
Beth Mace:I've been to all 50 states with the exception of Alaska, but that's because in my career I've traveled again and again and again. So I go a lot of places. So with that, I wanna say thank you very much. I really appreciate having time to talk with both of you. Thank you. And thank you audience so much for listening and until next time we'll hear you again.